Season 2 of HBO’s pirate comedy/romance Our Flag Means Dying takes some massive turns by episode 7 — perhaps not as massive because the season 1 flip, when inept pirate captain Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby) and Ed “Blackbeard” Train (Taika Waititi) realized they’d romantic emotions for one another, however nonetheless… an entire lot of issues occur that we figured viewers would wish to discuss, as soon as they’d seen it for themselves. So when Polygon sat down with creator and showrunner David Jenkins to speak about season 2, we cut up the dialog into two components: an outline of the season’s greatest concepts, and this spoiler-focused dialog about all of the surprises in episode 7, together with its explosive ending.
[Ed. note: Read on at your own risk; spoilers abound ahead.]
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
To recap: In episode 7 of Our Flag Means Dying season 2, Stede and Blackbeard have simply had intercourse for the primary time, they usually appear all set for his or her happily-ever-after collectively — till Blackbeard abruptly leaves Stede to pursue a job as a fisherman. The crew visits the Republic of Pirates, the place Oluwande (Samson Kayo) expresses emotions for Zhang Yi Sao (Ruibo Qian), regardless that he was beforehand uncomfortable together with her expressing emotions for him when she took over his ship, and regardless that he and his buddy Jim (Vico Ortiz) had a romantic liaison in season 1. In addition they study that The Swede (Nat Faxon) has fortunately settled in as certainly one of 20 husbands to Spanish Jackie (Leslie Jones), regardless that he was pressured into that relationship to save lots of the remainder of the crew.
Sure, that abstract does sound like one thing out of a cleaning soap opera, now that you just point out it. However this doesn’t: On the finish of the episode, a lure set by Prince Ricky (Erroll Shand) obliterates Zhang’s fleet, and the pirates’ haven is destroyed when the English fleet sweeps in to kill or seize the entire forged. Jenkins talks us by way of all of it under.
This dialog has been edited for concision and readability.
Polygon: One factor that actually stunned me in season 2 is that you’ve two totally different coercive relationships the place a person is being uncomfortably pressured into an intimate relationship with a lady, after which he later decides he likes it. What sort of conversations went into these relationships and the gender tropes you’re reversing there?
David Jenkins: With The Swede and Spanish Jackie — she owns [her husbands]. They reside in her basement, and he or she owns them, principally. So already, you’re [ick noise]. However then I really like that The Swede actually likes her. She’s a gangster, she’s a mob boss. There’s a gender side to having her in that position. However then he says, “I’ve discovered components of myself that I by no means knew existed, and different components I believed had been lengthy gone.”
I simply favored the concept of Leslie [Jones]’s character and Nat Faxon’s character being collectively and completely happy, balancing one another. She’s already bought a wild factor going — she’s bought 20 husbands. To me, to see that relationship begin as sort of a joke, Oh, Leslie’s character’s scary and his character’s timid, and it turns into No, truly, they stability one another fairly nicely — that’s sort of candy. It’s much less about the truth that she primarily owns him, it’s about the truth that they do care about one another. It’s sort of good.
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
However you may have very a lot the identical dynamic with Zhang and Olu. After they begin out, she’s bought all the facility within the relationship, and he or she’s sort of predatory about claiming Olu. He’s intimidated and compelled into it, and he comes round on deciding he likes her. It simply seems like an odd beat to repeat.
Properly, she has all the facility within the relationship till she doesn’t. After which she realizes that she’s in love with this man — he’s smooth and sort and candy. And that’s highly effective. I feel they’re mirrored in Blackbeard and Stede’s relationship — they’re every one another’s manic pixie dream lady.
I feel there’s something within the present about how piracy is a brutal lifestyle. It’s primarily Mad Max, this world. There’s no regulation, there’s simply sturdy and weak. And in tales like Sport of Thrones, we see how that performs out. It’s numerous girls getting raped in tales and also you’re like, [resigned ick noise]. In Our Flag, numerous these relationships aren’t consenting relationships — they’re power-dynamic relationships, as a result of it’s Mad Max. So a factor I wish to see on this present is, Properly, why is the extra highly effective particular person on this weaker particular person? What are they making an attempt to stability?
In a world the place would possibly makes proper, and a few folks simply have to align themselves with somebody sturdy, it’s fascinating to be like, Properly, what does Blackbeard want? What does Spanish Jackie want? What does Zhang Yi Sao want, essentially the most highly effective pirate on the planet? What occurs when she will get right into a relationship? What’s she on the lookout for? She’s a contemporary particular person, what does she want? So that you’re all the time gonna get these bizarre energy dynamics to begin with, I feel, and then you definitely simply attempt to get to: What’s beneath that? Why are they doing what they’re doing? What are they on the lookout for?
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
Talking of what Blackbeard wants, I feel some followers will assume that him leaving Stede in episode 7 is a type of revenge. It so intently parallels what Stede did to him. You’ll be able to learn it as them being very a lot alike, operating from dedication, or as him making an attempt to harm Stede. What do you wish to say to folks freaking out after episode 7?
Properly, there’s a factor I discuss so much — I actually, actually favored the Bradley Cooper/Woman Gaga model of A Star Is Born. I like how the dynamic adjustments between them. All the things we do is collapsed on this present — we discuss these lofty issues, however we don’t have the time to execute all the pieces we’d love to do. Like, episode 4 is a mini Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, only a very small model of it.
On this case, we favored the concept that Blackbeard discovered this man and made him a authentic pirate, however now that he’s a star, Blackbeard’s questioning what he desires to do now that he’s misplaced his urge for food for piracy. And Stede’s changed into Woman Gaga’s character. He’s well-known now, as a result of he killed the scariest pirate, in order that energy is inverted. It’s fascinating to take a look at how a relationship adjustments now that Blackbird isn’t the star anymore and Stede isn’t a hanger-on. Stede bought what he needed; he’s an actual boy. Is Blackbeard jealous? Is he uncomfortable with it? When energy dynamics shift in a relationship, that results in hassle. After which it actually is rather like, What are they going to do? Are they going to make it by way of it? Can they rebalance? As a result of that could be a signal of a wholesome relationship.
That episode can be a giant turning level for Zhang and Olu, and for Olu and Jim. What went into the selections round them shifting in several instructions after their connection in season 1?
I feel that relationship was all the time seen within the room as a buddy relationship that bought romantic. That rigidity was fascinating to us — it’s like, Properly, what if we don’t play them as jealous? What if we play it as, if you love a buddy and it turns into romantic, and then you definitely see somebody who makes them completely happy and you realize you’re not it, you are feeling jealous? But in addition, they’re your buddy. You wish to see them completely happy. I feel numerous instances, notably in straight relationships, it’s traumatizing, and might be extra concerning the jealousy. However right here, I feel it’s good to see it this fashion: They really care about one another sufficient to simply wish to see their buddy with somebody good, somebody who takes care of them. In my life, these are the perfect relationships [with exes]. I do see these amongst my mates, however I don’t see it dramatized so much, I simply see the detrimental part dramatized. I prefer it this fashion — they’re mates, they usually simply wish to see one another do nicely.
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
This has by no means actually been a present about villains, however the finish of episode 7 seems like a shift in that regard.
I feel numerous the inner forces in Our Flag are the villains. It’s like, Are you able to let your self be beloved? Are you aware what you need in love? If you realize what you need, are you wholesome sufficient to get it? Once you begin going into the tropes of [Blackbeard impression] Oh, ought to I be homosexual or not? or Oh, my mates did me soiled — we’ve seen that so much. It’s good dramatic gas, however I don’t assume these are the issues that drive the present.
I feel the issues that drive this present are a bunch of people that care about one another and are attempting to determine the way to have relationships. And relationships are onerous. Normally, you’re your personal dangerous man or gal or particular person in a relationship. It’s not often [someone] doing one thing horrible to you — it’s you simply making an attempt to determine your personal shit. Hopefully, your folks assist.
The large ending of episode 7 does counsel, although, that there is likely to be extra exterior stress coming to the forged, even when it’s only a short-term blip.
I feel this can be a story concerning the age of piracy coming to an finish. This lifestyle is coming to an finish. And each Western that’s good is that story: This lifestyle we made is coming to an finish, and it could actually’t final. […] I feel each story about outlaws is about making an attempt to protect a lifestyle towards normative forces which might be sort of fascistic.
All of which is a giant historic second, so far as the historical past of piracy, and it’s a part of Stede and Blackbeard’s real-life story. Was that factor coming in from historical past, the way in which you took little components of Stede and Blackbeard’s relationship from historical past?
Utilizing historic beats are good, as a result of they provide the story some form — till they’re not helpful, and then you definitely simply ignore them. Once you really feel such as you’d fairly eat a sandwich, simply ignore the historical past. After which if you really feel like, OK, we’re in emotional soup right here, we’d like some downward stress, then you definitely convey historical past again in. The stability of the present is 90% ignoring historical past, after which 10%, convey it in, each time we’re like, Ah, gotta transfer the story ahead! Keep in mind, the English are on the market, they usually’re actually dangerous!
The season 2 finale of Our Flag Means Dying airs on Max on Oct. 26.
